Re: Who has a security system and dialup?

Re: Who has a security system and dialup?
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Re: Who has a security system and dialup? Milhouse Van Houten 03-31-2007
Posted by Milhouse Van Houten on March 31, 2007, 12:19 am
If you were  Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
mm wrote:

>wrote:
>
>>When my sister first got a computer her speeds were in the 40s.
>>
>>Somewhere down the road she now only gets about 20k.
>>
>>She was having trouble with one of her phones. I looked in her phone
>>box and the security people had put their lines on the main and the
>>extensions on their other pair.
>>
>>Her phone problems turned out to be an inside phone. I am not sure
>>when her speeds slowed as it could have happened over the past 5 years
>>or so.
>>
>>Has anyone confirmed that having a security system in the phone loop
>>slows dial up?
>
>Within the next month, I'll have what you say.
>
>I sort of doubt this is the problem****, but when I've had speed
>problems, I've routed the line straight from the nid to the computer,
>and from there to everywher else. That didn't really help either, but
>I knew I had done what I could.
>
>If you want to check, bypass the connection with the burglar alarm.
>
>The best way to do this if you have a NID, a network interface device,
>outside your house, is probably to get some phone wire with modular
>plugs on each end, and run the wire from her modem to the NID. (You
>have to unplug the house to do this) You can go through the hall and
>out the window. See what kind of speeds you get.

Agreed.. So far..


> If you want to do
>this for an extended period, take the second jack of the modem and use
>another wire to plug that in to the place the modem is plugged into
>now. Then the rest of the phones in your house will work, except
>probably not the burglar alarm connection. But her alarm is probably
>not armed when people are home, anyhow.

Nope, that will effectively send the phone voltage back to the
customer side of the NID, which is now completely isolated because the
small jumper cord from the Telco side to the Customer side in the NID
is.

I think you meant to say run the 2nd jumper from the "phone out" of
the modem to the NID "in", the jack that was unplugged (the small
jumper inside the NID). Which will effectively make the modem the
seizure device.



>
>If you want to keep the alarm in the circuit, for extended testing,
>you'll need to reverse two pairs of two wires each. So that when the
>alarm siezes the line, it will sieze the wires in the house (that go
>to the computer and then to the NID) instead of the wires that go
>directly to the NID, which are no longer conected to anything.

Nope.. don't do that of all the other house phones are gone.


>
>The major reason the alarm siezes the line is so the burglar can't
>interfere with the dialing (the touch-toning) by picking up the first
>phone he sees and pushing extra buttons. But I don't think many
>burglars bother to do that (anyone know?), and you're not likely to
>get burlarized during this modem speed testing period anyhow. Plus I
>have a siren.

That's true.



>So the alarm will still work in every other way even if it doesn't
>sieze the line, if you reverse the in and out You could do this at
>the alarm control panel, or at the 2x2 telephone outlet the alarm is
>plugged into that I explain below.
>
>I know I'm not always clear, so if any of this is confusing, please
>ask.
>

Iv 'e been an alarm tech for 16 years and your explanation *is*
confusing - not because I don't understand in-house wiring better than
the phone man, but because I had to decipher your instructions. <G>

>The second way to bypass the alarm, only bypasses that and not the
>rest of hthe house, but doesn't require there to be a NID outside.
>
>2) My alarm, which I am installing myself, has four phone connections,
>two in and two out, and is intended to use standard four-conductor
>indoor phone wire, with a modular plug on the other end. The modular
>plug is intended to plug into a standard phone jack (at least that is
>what I'll be using) but one that is wired differently from an
>extension phone. This one instead has two wires (in the same sheath)
>from the line from the phone company, and two wires that go to the
>rest of your house.


It's NOT a standard jack - It's an RJ-31x. It has shorting pins
inside, so when the cord gets disconnected the shorting pins allow the
phone voltage to go back out to the NID - (when it's plugged in the
panel's relay does it)


>
>So all you have to do is, not at the burlar alarm panel but at that
>2x2 inch box, either use 2 wires with alligator clips on each end, and
>clip them from red to red and from green to green.

Inside the RJ-31x the colors are <green/red> to street, <gray/brown>
to house phones.

This is NOT a standard jack by any means.. If you look inside one
there are 4 more connections - they are for tampers.




>(You could do this at the burglar alarm panel too. although there
>might not be any stripped wire showing.)
>
>Or you can take one of each color off, and put it on the very same
>screw as the one of the same color.
>
>(The colors won't be like this at the control panel)
>\


True.. He would put blue to orange and blue/wht to orange/wht

>This box should have two phone wires coming in, and the red and greeen
>of one wire connected to the red and green screws of the box (by which
>I mean, the screws are all the same color but they have different
>color little internal wires connected to them. They may also have an
>R and G embossed in the plastic.) And the red and green of the other
>wire is connected to the black and yellow screws of the box. That way
>all four wires go to your burglar alarm which will just pass them
>through to each other normally, but will intercept the phone line when
>there is an alarm and it wants to call the central station. IF this
>box doesn't have two reds and two greens, post back with more details.

<sigh>


<snip>
>
>
>Also post to alt.security.alarms .


Please do....

x-posted




Posted by Roland Moore on March 31, 2007, 12:45 am
If you were  Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
>>When my sister first got a computer her speeds were in the 40s.
>>
>>Somewhere down the road she now only gets about 20k.

No real mystery. Sounds like a dial up connection where the phone company
has used line doubling. It's legal but it takes the speed down to lower 20's
for certain. A normal alarm panel with proper phone jack terminations won't
change dial up connection speeds much.

> mm wrote:
>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>When my sister first got a computer her speeds were in the 40s.
>>>
>>>Somewhere down the road she now only gets about 20k.
>>>
>>>She was having trouble with one of her phones. I looked in her phone
>>>box and the security people had put their lines on the main and the
>>>extensions on their other pair.
>>>
>>>Her phone problems turned out to be an inside phone. I am not sure
>>>when her speeds slowed as it could have happened over the past 5 years
>>>or so.
>>>
>>>Has anyone confirmed that having a security system in the phone loop
>>>slows dial up?
>>
>>Within the next month, I'll have what you say.
>>
>>I sort of doubt this is the problem****, but when I've had speed
>>problems, I've routed the line straight from the nid to the computer,
>>and from there to everywher else. That didn't really help either, but
>>I knew I had done what I could.
>>
>>If you want to check, bypass the connection with the burglar alarm.
>>
>>The best way to do this if you have a NID, a network interface device,
>>outside your house, is probably to get some phone wire with modular
>>plugs on each end, and run the wire from her modem to the NID. (You
>>have to unplug the house to do this) You can go through the hall and
>>out the window. See what kind of speeds you get.
>
> Agreed.. So far..
>
>
>> If you want to do
>>this for an extended period, take the second jack of the modem and use
>>another wire to plug that in to the place the modem is plugged into
>>now. Then the rest of the phones in your house will work, except
>>probably not the burglar alarm connection. But her alarm is probably
>>not armed when people are home, anyhow.
>
> Nope, that will effectively send the phone voltage back to the
> customer side of the NID, which is now completely isolated because the
> small jumper cord from the Telco side to the Customer side in the NID
> is.
>
> I think you meant to say run the 2nd jumper from the "phone out" of
> the modem to the NID "in", the jack that was unplugged (the small
> jumper inside the NID). Which will effectively make the modem the
> seizure device.
>
>
>
>>
>>If you want to keep the alarm in the circuit, for extended testing,
>>you'll need to reverse two pairs of two wires each. So that when the
>>alarm siezes the line, it will sieze the wires in the house (that go
>>to the computer and then to the NID) instead of the wires that go
>>directly to the NID, which are no longer conected to anything.
>
> Nope.. don't do that of all the other house phones are gone.
>
>
>>
>>The major reason the alarm siezes the line is so the burglar can't
>>interfere with the dialing (the touch-toning) by picking up the first
>>phone he sees and pushing extra buttons. But I don't think many
>>burglars bother to do that (anyone know?), and you're not likely to
>>get burlarized during this modem speed testing period anyhow. Plus I
>>have a siren.
>
> That's true.
>
>
>
>>So the alarm will still work in every other way even if it doesn't
>>sieze the line, if you reverse the in and out You could do this at
>>the alarm control panel, or at the 2x2 telephone outlet the alarm is
>>plugged into that I explain below.
>>
>>I know I'm not always clear, so if any of this is confusing, please
>>ask.
>>
>
> Iv 'e been an alarm tech for 16 years and your explanation *is*
> confusing - not because I don't understand in-house wiring better than
> the phone man, but because I had to decipher your instructions. <G>
>
>>The second way to bypass the alarm, only bypasses that and not the
>>rest of hthe house, but doesn't require there to be a NID outside.
>>
>>2) My alarm, which I am installing myself, has four phone connections,
>>two in and two out, and is intended to use standard four-conductor
>>indoor phone wire, with a modular plug on the other end. The modular
>>plug is intended to plug into a standard phone jack (at least that is
>>what I'll be using) but one that is wired differently from an
>>extension phone. This one instead has two wires (in the same sheath)
>>from the line from the phone company, and two wires that go to the
>>rest of your house.
>
>
> It's NOT a standard jack - It's an RJ-31x. It has shorting pins
> inside, so when the cord gets disconnected the shorting pins allow the
> phone voltage to go back out to the NID - (when it's plugged in the
> panel's relay does it)
>
>
>>
>>So all you have to do is, not at the burlar alarm panel but at that
>>2x2 inch box, either use 2 wires with alligator clips on each end, and
>>clip them from red to red and from green to green.
>
> Inside the RJ-31x the colors are <green/red> to street, <gray/brown>
> to house phones.
>
> This is NOT a standard jack by any means.. If you look inside one
> there are 4 more connections - they are for tampers.
>
>
>
>
>>(You could do this at the burglar alarm panel too. although there
>>might not be any stripped wire showing.)
>>
>>Or you can take one of each color off, and put it on the very same
>>screw as the one of the same color.
>>
>>(The colors won't be like this at the control panel)
>>\
>
>
> True.. He would put blue to orange and blue/wht to orange/wht
>
>>This box should have two phone wires coming in, and the red and greeen
>>of one wire connected to the red and green screws of the box (by which
>>I mean, the screws are all the same color but they have different
>>color little internal wires connected to them. They may also have an
>>R and G embossed in the plastic.) And the red and green of the other
>>wire is connected to the black and yellow screws of the box. That way
>>all four wires go to your burglar alarm which will just pass them
>>through to each other normally, but will intercept the phone line when
>>there is an alarm and it wants to call the central station. IF this
>>box doesn't have two reds and two greens, post back with more details.
>
> <sigh>
>
>
> <snip>
>>
>>
>>Also post to alt.security.alarms .
>
>
> Please do....
>
> x-posted
>
>
>



Posted by mm on March 31, 2007, 1:27 am
If you were  Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 23:19:00 -0500, Milhouse Van Houten

>mm wrote:
>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>When my sister first got a computer her speeds were in the 40s.
>>>
>>>Somewhere down the road she now only gets about 20k.
>>>
>>>She was having trouble with one of her phones. I looked in her phone
>>>box and the security people had put their lines on the main and the
>>>extensions on their other pair.
>>>
>>>Her phone problems turned out to be an inside phone. I am not sure
>>>when her speeds slowed as it could have happened over the past 5 years
>>>or so.
>>>
>>>Has anyone confirmed that having a security system in the phone loop
>>>slows dial up?
>>
>>Within the next month, I'll have what you say.
>>
>>I sort of doubt this is the problem****, but when I've had speed
>>problems, I've routed the line straight from the nid to the computer,
>>and from there to everywher else. That didn't really help either, but
>>I knew I had done what I could.
>>
>>If you want to check, bypass the connection with the burglar alarm.
>>
>>The best way to do this if you have a NID, a network interface device,
>>outside your house, is probably to get some phone wire with modular
>>plugs on each end, and run the wire from her modem to the NID. (You
------------------------------------------
>>have to unplug the house to do this) You can go through the hall and
>>out the window. See what kind of speeds you get.
>
>Agreed.. So far..
>
>
>> If you want to do
>>this for an extended period, take the second jack of the modem and use
>>another wire to plug that in to the place the modem is plugged into
>>now. Then the rest of the phones in your house will work, except
>>probably not the burglar alarm connection. But her alarm is probably
>>not armed when people are home, anyhow.
>
>Nope, that will effectively send the phone voltage back to the
>customer side of the NID, which is now completely isolated because the
>small jumper cord from the Telco side to the Customer side in the NID
>is.

Yes, maybe I wasn't clear. The customer side of the NID is only
connected to the house, because the small jumper cord in the nid is
disconnected from the telco side.

That wire is out, but the long wire from her modem to the NID is
plugged into the Telco side.

BTW, OP, if you don't have a NID, at least with Verizon in Maryland,
they'll install one for you for free. I guess in the long run, they
think this will save them money. IIRC, they didn't have to come into
the house to do this and I didn't have to be home.

>I think you meant to say run the 2nd jumper from the "phone out" of

Not really. :) I can't keep track of what they call these things, so
I figured he would have to do some of the work himself.

I called it the second jack because it wasn't the one he should have
used in the first stage. I figured he knew how to connect the modem,
and I figured for the first connection he would use the same jack
which is now plugged into the wall or the surge surpressor.

>the modem to the NID "in", the jack that was unplugged (the small
>jumper inside the NID).

At the NID end, I said he had to unplug the house, and I figured he
would take that to mean that he should plug in the new wire to the
same place. But shouldn't that wire come from the Line In jack on
the modem?

> Which will effectively make the modem the
>seizure device.

Yes.

Although I must have wired mine a bit differently, since I can pick up
any of my working phones and hear the internet noise. Since I got a
56K modem years ago, doing this no longer breaks my internet
connection, although sometimes I wish it did, so I could use the
phone. :) I guess I allowed one Y connector between the phone line
and the modem, and the other half of the Y goes to the rest of the
house.

>>If you want to keep the alarm in the circuit, for extended testing,
>>you'll need to reverse two pairs of two wires each. So that when the
>>alarm siezes the line, it will sieze the wires in the house (that go
>>to the computer and then to the NID) instead of the wires that go
>>directly to the NID, which are no longer conected to anything.
>
>Nope.. don't do that of all the other house phones are gone.

Why would that be? The wire from the burglar alarm jack goes to the
nid, but the short jumper in the nid is unplugged, so that has no
effect.

I'm assuming she's not connected to the ISP when she tries to use a
phone, so the modem hasn't siezed the line.

So all the phones in the house should work fine.

Again, I may not have been clear, but that's what I meant.

>>The major reason the alarm siezes the line is so the burglar can't
>>interfere with the dialing (the touch-toning) by picking up the first
>>phone he sees and pushing extra buttons. But I don't think many
>>burglars bother to do that (anyone know?), and you're not likely to
>>get burlarized during this modem speed testing period anyhow. Plus I
>>have a siren.
>
>That's true.
>>
>>So the alarm will still work in every other way even if it doesn't
>>sieze the line, if you reverse the in and out You could do this at
>>the alarm control panel, or at the 2x2 telephone outlet the alarm is
>>plugged into that I explain below.
>>
>>I know I'm not always clear, so if any of this is confusing, please
>>ask.
>>
>
>Iv 'e been an alarm tech for 16 years and your explanation *is*
>confusing - not because I don't understand in-house wiring better than
>the phone man, but because I had to decipher your instructions. <G>

I'm sure. But with a post this long, which alrady took time, and the
chance the OP will go in an entirely different direction, and the
ability for him to ask questions, I don't want to spend the extra time
rewriting.

Let him spend the extra time rereading. In the long run that will be
helpful to him. :)

>>The second way to bypass the alarm, only bypasses that and not the
>>rest of hthe house, but doesn't require there to be a NID outside.
>>
>>2) My alarm, which I am installing myself, has four phone connections,
>>two in and two out, and is intended to use standard four-conductor
>>indoor phone wire, with a modular plug on the other end. The modular
>>plug is intended to plug into a standard phone jack (at least that is
>>what I'll be using) but one that is wired differently from an
>>extension phone. This one instead has two wires (in the same sheath)
>>from the line from the phone company, and two wires that go to the
>>rest of your house.
>
>It's NOT a standard jack - It's an RJ-31x. It has shorting pins
>inside, so when the cord gets disconnected the shorting pins allow the
>phone voltage to go back out to the NID - (when it's plugged in the
>panel's relay does it)

Thanks. Didn't know about those. Is that so someone in the house
won't accidentally unplug the alarm and defeat the phones? Since I'm
the only one that lives here, that's not a risk for me. Is there
another reason?

I'll remember about these jacks if I talk to others again.

Hmmm. If it has shorting pins, does that mean all he has to do is to
unplug the phone wire from the jack and that will be the same as
bypassing the burglar alarm? That would be really easy.

>>So all you have to do is, not at the burlar alarm panel but at that
>>2x2 inch box, either use 2 wires with alligator clips on each end, and
>>clip them from red to red and from green to green.
>
>Inside the RJ-31x the colors are <green/red> to street, <gray/brown>
>to house phones.
>
>This is NOT a standard jack by any means.. If you look inside one
>there are 4 more connections - they are for tampers.

>
>>(You could do this at the burglar alarm panel too. although there
>>might not be any stripped wire showing.)
>>
>>Or you can take one of each color off, and put it on the very same
>>screw as the one of the same color.
>>
>>(The colors won't be like this at the control panel)
>>\
>
>
>True.. He would put blue to orange and blue/wht to orange/wht
>
>>This box should have two phone wires coming in, and the red and greeen
>>of one wire connected to the red and green screws of the box (by which
>>I mean, the screws are all the same color but they have different
>>color little internal wires connected to them. They may also have an
>>R and G embossed in the plastic.) And the red and green of the other
>>wire is connected to the black and yellow screws of the box. That way
>>all four wires go to your burglar alarm which will just pass them
>>through to each other normally, but will intercept the phone line when
>>there is an alarm and it wants to call the central station. IF this
>>box doesn't have two reds and two greens, post back with more details.
>
><sigh>
>
>
><snip>
>>
>>
>>Also post to alt.security.alarms .
>
>
>Please do....
>
>x-posted
>
>


Posted by Milhouse Van Houten on March 31, 2007, 2:04 am
If you were  Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
mm wrote:

>>It's NOT a standard jack - It's an RJ-31x. It has shorting pins
>>inside, so when the cord gets disconnected the shorting pins allow the
>>phone voltage to go back out to the NID - (when it's plugged in the
>>panel's relay does it)
>
>Thanks. Didn't know about those. Is that so someone in the house
>won't accidentally unplug the alarm and defeat the phones? Since I'm
>the only one that lives here, that's not a risk for me. Is there
>another reason?
>
>I'll remember about these jacks if I talk to others again.
>
>Hmmm. If it has shorting pins, does that mean all he has to do is to
>unplug the phone wire from the jack and that will be the same as
>bypassing the burglar alarm? That would be really easy.


If the OP want's to sort out what we have talked about, then let's
wait until he has more questions. We have gone way beyond his skill
level if he is a novice.

The RJ-31x is an FCC requirement. It is intended as a disconnect from
the alarm panel if things go awry. If the dialer locks up for
instance, the customer needs a way of defeating line seizure to get
his telephone back - so he simply unplugs the cord from the RJ-31X and
then the shorting pins will allow the telco voltage to flow back to
the NID (where the house phone wires are spliced), bypassing the
control panel's relay that usually handles it.


Control panels should be located in an area that is not easily
accessible by a burglar, in a closet for instance. The RJ-31x should
ALWAYS be mounted outside the panel (not in the can) per. FCC
requirements.. this is a security risk, yes... But nonetheless is
required.

You are right about unplugging the jack.. But "we" are betting the
burglar cannot find the jack in time to prevent the alarm
transmission. I place my panels up high too, so he would need a
ladder even if he did find the jack within the 30 second delay period
(if he kicked in a delay door) - other zones are instant..So there is
no time to find the jack.

There are other ways to circumvent the dialing, but will not be
discussed on an open forum.





Posted by Roland Moore on March 31, 2007, 2:15 am
If you were  Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
>There are other ways to circumvent the dialing, but will not be
>discussed on an open forum.

I know one. Ask AT&T to send a tech to hook up the jack, and then don't test
it. Works every time!

> mm wrote:
>
>>>It's NOT a standard jack - It's an RJ-31x. It has shorting pins
>>>inside, so when the cord gets disconnected the shorting pins allow the
>>>phone voltage to go back out to the NID - (when it's plugged in the
>>>panel's relay does it)
>>
>>Thanks. Didn't know about those. Is that so someone in the house
>>won't accidentally unplug the alarm and defeat the phones? Since I'm
>>the only one that lives here, that's not a risk for me. Is there
>>another reason?
>>
>>I'll remember about these jacks if I talk to others again.
>>
>>Hmmm. If it has shorting pins, does that mean all he has to do is to
>>unplug the phone wire from the jack and that will be the same as
>>bypassing the burglar alarm? That would be really easy.
>
>
> If the OP want's to sort out what we have talked about, then let's
> wait until he has more questions. We have gone way beyond his skill
> level if he is a novice.
>
> The RJ-31x is an FCC requirement. It is intended as a disconnect from
> the alarm panel if things go awry. If the dialer locks up for
> instance, the customer needs a way of defeating line seizure to get
> his telephone back - so he simply unplugs the cord from the RJ-31X and
> then the shorting pins will allow the telco voltage to flow back to
> the NID (where the house phone wires are spliced), bypassing the
> control panel's relay that usually handles it.
>
>
> Control panels should be located in an area that is not easily
> accessible by a burglar, in a closet for instance. The RJ-31x should
> ALWAYS be mounted outside the panel (not in the can) per. FCC
> requirements.. this is a security risk, yes... But nonetheless is
> required.
>
> You are right about unplugging the jack.. But "we" are betting the
> burglar cannot find the jack in time to prevent the alarm
> transmission. I place my panels up high too, so he would need a
> ladder even if he did find the jack within the 30 second delay period
> (if he kicked in a delay door) - other zones are instant..So there is
> no time to find the jack.
>
> There are other ways to circumvent the dialing, but will not be
> discussed on an open forum.
>
>
>
>



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