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Biometrics
Biometrics

Biometrics

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Subject Author Date
Biometrics Dan 07-12-2008
---> Re: Biometrics Juergen Nievele...07-14-2008
Posted by =?Utf-8?B?RGFu?= on July 21, 2008, 9:41 am
If you were  Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
Well, then I join Chris Quirke, MVP as part of the internal safety community.
The multi-leveled security approach must include external security with NT
as well as internal safety of 9x. I have maintained this approach for a
while (since at least 2001) and have not seen compelling enough evidence to
make me change my views despite reading numerous technet articles at
Microsoft, taking computer courses in college, working with PC's since about
1984 when my Dad, Ivan taught me BASIC programming on an IBM PCjr which I
still own and it still runs. I feel that being a gamer as well has helped
expand my mind to see further aspects of the debate and not be too focused on
one side.

For example, Mozilla Firefox supports 256 bit AES encryption with Windows 98
Second Edition but Internet Explorer is so unfocused on security and safety
that it only allows a maximum of 128 bit cipher strength unless users except
Vista which has a great security aspect but still needs work on the
compatibility side as I mentioned the strange issue with my IPOD Mini and not
working with Vista one day and the next day working when I went to the Apple
Store and the music played on Itunes and I felt like a fool although I think
the tech. believed me although that does not matter to much. In addition,
the convenience of ActiveX technology within IE is great for auto-updates but
presents another front for hackers to compromise systems as well as the
remote access within XP as well as not tightening up IE default (stupid and
weak) security settings. I think Microsoft's mistake was in 1998 when they
decided to tie Internet Explorer as an integral part of the Windows operating
system. As I said before, Microsoft is not alone in this because Apple ties
Itunes with Quicktime and if you remove Quicktime then you get an error
message and cannot run Itunes. The whole issue of tying products as one is
stupid and makes computer users much less safe and secure because then the
computer user has to deal with security issues in both products when they may
use only one such as me only using Itunes and not caring about Quicktime but
having to update and maintain it as one. Anyway, I broke my word about not
continuing this debate until Annie's computer issue is fixed and so I am
sorry about that but I tend to be impulsive sometimes.

"Paul Adare - MVP" wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 10:50:01 -0700, Dan wrote:
>
> > Thank you for your feedback, Steve. I was wondering since the Windows 9x
> > source code is now so old and not really useful then would Microsoft be
> > willing to sell it. I can think of some buyers who would be willing to pay
> > good money for the 9x source code and since it is no longer useful to
> > Microsoft because it is so old then why not just get rid of it and be done
> > with this now useless technology.
>
> Intellectual Property is not all about bits and lines of source code. You
> also need to consider the algorithms that are being used. Just because
> Windows 9x is no longer being sold or maintained does not mean that there
> is no IP in the source code that Microsoft needs to protect.
>
> >
> >
> > The NT source code was leaked:
> >
> > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/Feb04/02-12windowssource.mspx
>
> This is pretty much a non-sequitur. Just because some source code was
> leaked, it doesn't follow that Microsoft should sell off old source code.
>
> While Chris Quirke is an MVP that does not mean that his whole "maintenance
> OS" concept is endorsed by Microsoft, nor does it mean that it is endorsed
> by the security community at large.
>
> --
> Paul Adare
> MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
> http://www.identit.ca
> No program done by an undergrad will work after she graduates.
>

Posted by =?Utf-8?B?RGFu?= on July 21, 2008, 12:46 am
If you were  Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
I looked over your blog and like your points Steve. You certainly have a
great grasp of the security aspect of protecting computers. Now here is my
view:

1. Please implement all of your security protocols

2. Use Windows 98 Second Edition Machines as a safety internal protocol as
Chris Quirke, MVP suggests how the internal safety of 9x is awesome and makes
remote hacking difficult thus when someone does manage to hack a network they
cannot overcome the internal safety of the 9x operating system that has the
maintenance operating system of DOS that Chris Quirke, MVP maintains is
sorely lacking in Vista.
Consider the possibility of having one 98 Second Edition machine as a
Gateway to the Network.

3. Maintain certain machines as off-line only in locked and secure rooms
with minimal access and information only given on an as needed basis as is
done in the military and at defense companies like Raytheon after full
background checks and after enough time has passed that you can prove the
person is not a spy.

4. Implement the proper configuration and customize hardware options of all
machines so if a certain machine that is released in the market has been
compromised the security and safety of your network is not at risk.

5. Inform US-Cert (Department of Homeland Security in the States) of any
attempted and seriously probing of your network.

6. Ideally have special catching machines to attract high level hackers to
them for highly valued informaion via the proper protocol of bait and catch.

7. Have Fun and See How Many Hackers you can Catch and Remember this is
Truly all a Game of being able to one up the hackers --- ideally Microsoft
will soon have a 3rd source code that can finally put 9x and NT to rest and
have the best of safety and security within one source code but I wonder if
this is even possible but certainly Microsoft does need a new source code.

Thanks Again for all of your Advice and Your Great Blog and Feel Free to Let
Me Know My Shortcomings in the Debate --- I really appreciate your Feedback

"Steve Riley [MSFT]" wrote:

> Biometrics can never replace passwords, because they aren't secrets.
>
> It's me, and here's my proof: why identity and authentication must remain
> distinct
> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc512578(TechNet.10).aspx
>
>
> --
> Steve Riley
> steve.riley@microsoft.com
> http://blogs.technet.com/steriley
> http://www.protectyourwindowsnetwork.com
>
>
>
> > Bingo! You solved the issue and yes it is one of those cheap fingerprint
> > scanners where you just swipe your finger so it must have already had the
> > image of my fingerprint on the scanner. It sounds like someone would need
> > to
> > clean the fingerprint scanner each time and it does indeed seem very easy
> > to
> > fool. So much for the security of Biometrics at least cheap Biometric
> > devices
> >
> > "Juergen Nieveler" wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> > How secure and safe is biometric technology? The reason I bring this
> >> > up is because I was able to log in using my finger with a band-aid
> >> > attached and this definitely makes me question the security and safety
> >> > of biometric technology at least as far as laptops go. I imagine
> >> > there probably is lots of articles on this already but I wanted the
> >> > opinions of this newsgroup. Thanks in advance for the replies.
> >>
> >> If this was one of those fingerprint readers where you simply put your
> >> finger on (as opposed to those where you rub your finger along the
> >> contact plate in a swipe motion), chances are that the camera inside
> >> picked up the latent fingerprint that was still on the glass - this is
> >> a common vulnerability of those cheap camera-based readers. All they do
> >> is notice "Oh, something is pushing on the glass, and I recognise the
> >> pattern" - if the person who last used it had greasy fingers, the
> >> fingerprint would still be on the glass, so putting something on the
> >> glass that doesn't have OTHER fingerprints will force the camera to use
> >> the weak fingerprint image still visible to it...
> >>
> >> The swipe-type readers are safer in that there can't be an image left
> >> on the reader... but many of them still can be fooled by a fake
> >> fingerprint made by taking the fingerprint off something somebody
> >> touched (lots of how-to's available for that...).
> >>
> >> Juergen Nieveler
> >> --
> >> A feature is a bug with seniority.
> >>

Posted by Steve Riley [MSFT] on July 21, 2008, 2:06 am
If you were  Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
Thanks for reading.

1. More detail, please. Which ones do you have in mind that we haven't
implemented?

2. There is no "internal safety" in the 9x code. If you connect a 9x
computer to the Internet, it will get attacked. There are plenty of ways to
boot a computer with an alternate operating system if you need to perform
some kind of maintenance. (Note that as more and more people move to volume
and drive encryption, there will be additional steps, especially around key
archiving and recovery passwords.)

3. This is a typical recommendation for root certificate servers -- they are
the sources of authority for identity and they don't need to be online, so
keeping them disconnected and physically secure is sage advice. (And note
that you can't really ever "prove" that someone isn't a spy -- you can't
prove a negative.)

4. Most organizations achieve huge support cost savings by _standardizing_
on hardware. Per-machine custom twiddles add unnecessary complexity, which
increases the likelihood making configuration mistakes, which attackers will
then exploit. (The TPM chip, a hardware device that can store encryption
keys among other things, provides a useful machine identity.)

5. Can't argue with that.

6. You're talking about honeypots and honeynets. They're interesting for
learning about attacker behavior and motivations, but they aren't security
devices.

7. I'm not sure why you insist that the current version of Windows is the
same as NT. Over time we have rewritten much of the code. One example is the
IP stack in Vista/2008 -- it's all new.

--
Steve Riley
steve.riley@microsoft.com
http://blogs.technet.com/steriley
http://www.protectyourwindowsnetwork.com



> I looked over your blog and like your points Steve. You certainly have a
> great grasp of the security aspect of protecting computers. Now here is
> my
> view:
>
> 1. Please implement all of your security protocols
>
> 2. Use Windows 98 Second Edition Machines as a safety internal protocol
> as
> Chris Quirke, MVP suggests how the internal safety of 9x is awesome and
> makes
> remote hacking difficult thus when someone does manage to hack a network
> they
> cannot overcome the internal safety of the 9x operating system that has
> the
> maintenance operating system of DOS that Chris Quirke, MVP maintains is
> sorely lacking in Vista.
> Consider the possibility of having one 98 Second Edition machine as a
> Gateway to the Network.
>
> 3. Maintain certain machines as off-line only in locked and secure rooms
> with minimal access and information only given on an as needed basis as is
> done in the military and at defense companies like Raytheon after full
> background checks and after enough time has passed that you can prove the
> person is not a spy.
>
> 4. Implement the proper configuration and customize hardware options of
> all
> machines so if a certain machine that is released in the market has been
> compromised the security and safety of your network is not at risk.
>
> 5. Inform US-Cert (Department of Homeland Security in the States) of any
> attempted and seriously probing of your network.
>
> 6. Ideally have special catching machines to attract high level hackers to
> them for highly valued informaion via the proper protocol of bait and
> catch.
>
> 7. Have Fun and See How Many Hackers you can Catch and Remember this is
> Truly all a Game of being able to one up the hackers --- ideally Microsoft
> will soon have a 3rd source code that can finally put 9x and NT to rest
> and
> have the best of safety and security within one source code but I wonder
> if
> this is even possible but certainly Microsoft does need a new source code.
>
> Thanks Again for all of your Advice and Your Great Blog and Feel Free to
> Let
> Me Know My Shortcomings in the Debate --- I really appreciate your
> Feedback



Posted by =?Utf-8?B?RGFu?= on July 21, 2008, 7:22 am
If you were  Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
Thanks again, Steve. I will focus and post more on this debate after Annie
has been helped in this newsgroup. I just like the idea of having a totally
brand new code which I wonder if it will happen after Windows 7. I am
referring to this article in particular.


http://iht.com/articles/2008/06/29/technology/digi20.php

"Steve Riley [MSFT]" wrote:

> Thanks for reading.
>
> 1. More detail, please. Which ones do you have in mind that we haven't
> implemented?
>
> 2. There is no "internal safety" in the 9x code. If you connect a 9x
> computer to the Internet, it will get attacked. There are plenty of ways to
> boot a computer with an alternate operating system if you need to perform
> some kind of maintenance. (Note that as more and more people move to volume
> and drive encryption, there will be additional steps, especially around key
> archiving and recovery passwords.)
>
> 3. This is a typical recommendation for root certificate servers -- they are
> the sources of authority for identity and they don't need to be online, so
> keeping them disconnected and physically secure is sage advice. (And note
> that you can't really ever "prove" that someone isn't a spy -- you can't
> prove a negative.)
>
> 4. Most organizations achieve huge support cost savings by _standardizing_
> on hardware. Per-machine custom twiddles add unnecessary complexity, which
> increases the likelihood making configuration mistakes, which attackers will
> then exploit. (The TPM chip, a hardware device that can store encryption
> keys among other things, provides a useful machine identity.)
>
> 5. Can't argue with that.
>
> 6. You're talking about honeypots and honeynets. They're interesting for
> learning about attacker behavior and motivations, but they aren't security
> devices.
>
> 7. I'm not sure why you insist that the current version of Windows is the
> same as NT. Over time we have rewritten much of the code. One example is the
> IP stack in Vista/2008 -- it's all new.
>
> --
> Steve Riley
> steve.riley@microsoft.com
> http://blogs.technet.com/steriley
> http://www.protectyourwindowsnetwork.com
>
>
>
> > I looked over your blog and like your points Steve. You certainly have a
> > great grasp of the security aspect of protecting computers. Now here is
> > my
> > view:
> >
> > 1. Please implement all of your security protocols
> >
> > 2. Use Windows 98 Second Edition Machines as a safety internal protocol
> > as
> > Chris Quirke, MVP suggests how the internal safety of 9x is awesome and
> > makes
> > remote hacking difficult thus when someone does manage to hack a network
> > they
> > cannot overcome the internal safety of the 9x operating system that has
> > the
> > maintenance operating system of DOS that Chris Quirke, MVP maintains is
> > sorely lacking in Vista.
> > Consider the possibility of having one 98 Second Edition machine as a
> > Gateway to the Network.
> >
> > 3. Maintain certain machines as off-line only in locked and secure rooms
> > with minimal access and information only given on an as needed basis as is
> > done in the military and at defense companies like Raytheon after full
> > background checks and after enough time has passed that you can prove the
> > person is not a spy.
> >
> > 4. Implement the proper configuration and customize hardware options of
> > all
> > machines so if a certain machine that is released in the market has been
> > compromised the security and safety of your network is not at risk.
> >
> > 5. Inform US-Cert (Department of Homeland Security in the States) of any
> > attempted and seriously probing of your network.
> >
> > 6. Ideally have special catching machines to attract high level hackers to
> > them for highly valued informaion via the proper protocol of bait and
> > catch.
> >
> > 7. Have Fun and See How Many Hackers you can Catch and Remember this is
> > Truly all a Game of being able to one up the hackers --- ideally Microsoft
> > will soon have a 3rd source code that can finally put 9x and NT to rest
> > and
> > have the best of safety and security within one source code but I wonder
> > if
> > this is even possible but certainly Microsoft does need a new source code.
> >
> > Thanks Again for all of your Advice and Your Great Blog and Feel Free to
> > Let
> > Me Know My Shortcomings in the Debate --- I really appreciate your
> > Feedback
>
>

Posted by Root Kit on July 21, 2008, 9:13 am
If you were  Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:22:00 -0700, Dan

>I just like the idea of having a totally brand new code which I wonder if it
will
>happen after Windows 7. I am referring to this article in particular.
>
>http://iht.com/articles/2008/06/29/technology/digi20.php

Brand new code is seldom very stable and mostly buggy. And what would
be the reason for throwing away years of development just for the sake
of starting from scratch?

The article's comparison to Mac OS X is a bit far fetched, since Mac
OS X builds on an "old" Unix code base. Not that this is a bad idea at
all, but talking about "brand new code" in this context may be a
little .......

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