Why unhashing is not possible?

Why unhashing is not possible?

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Subject Author Date
Why unhashing is not possible? Randell_D 12-25-2007
Posted by Unruh on December 25, 2007, 6:38 pm
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>Barry Margolin wrote:


>>> Surely if the hash is unique, we know the process that got us the hash
>>> we have only to reverse the process... we can't... so... but why not?
>>
>> How could the hash possibly be guaranteed to be unique?


>For a limited set of inputs, this is very easy.

Yes. then it is not a hash. It may be an encryption, or a translation.


>> What the hash code designers try to do is make it very hard to find
>> another input that will hash to a given code. Even harder is finding
>> another input that's MEANINGFUL.


>This is only true for cryptographic hashes.
That was what he said, in the parts you erased.



Posted by Walter Roberson on December 25, 2007, 7:14 pm
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>>Barry Margolin wrote:

>>> How could the hash possibly be guaranteed to be unique?

>>For a limited set of inputs, this is very easy.

>Yes. then it is not a hash. It may be an encryption, or a translation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_hash_function

http://burtleburtle.net/bob/hash/perfect.html
"Minimal perfect hashing"


I've never seen Perfect Hashing referred to as an encryption or
translation, only ever as a "hash function".

Posted by Barry Margolin on December 26, 2007, 8:53 pm
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roberson@hushmail.com (Walter Roberson) wrote:

>
> >>Barry Margolin wrote:
>
> >>> How could the hash possibly be guaranteed to be unique?
>
> >>For a limited set of inputs, this is very easy.
>
> >Yes. then it is not a hash. It may be an encryption, or a translation.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_hash_function
>
> http://burtleburtle.net/bob/hash/perfect.html
> "Minimal perfect hashing"
>
>
> I've never seen Perfect Hashing referred to as an encryption or
> translation, only ever as a "hash function".

These are not the kind of hashing that the OP is talking about. He's
asking about cryptographic hashes, which are claimed to be
non-reversible. In this case, an important reason for the
non-reversibility is that they're many-to-one.

The word "hash" is used in a number of different contexts in computer
science, you have to be careful not to confuse them.

--
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***

Posted by Sebastian G. on December 27, 2007, 6:08 am
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Barry Margolin wrote:

> roberson@hushmail.com (Walter Roberson) wrote:
>
>>>> Barry Margolin wrote:
>>>>> How could the hash possibly be guaranteed to be unique?
>>>> For a limited set of inputs, this is very easy.
>>> Yes. then it is not a hash. It may be an encryption, or a translation.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_hash_function
>>
>> http://burtleburtle.net/bob/hash/perfect.html
>> "Minimal perfect hashing"
>>
>>
>> I've never seen Perfect Hashing referred to as an encryption or
>> translation, only ever as a "hash function".
>
> These are not the kind of hashing that the OP is talking about. He's
> asking about cryptographic hashes, which are claimed to be
> non-reversible.


The OP asked about non-reversible hashes, which are not just the
cryptographic hashes.

> In this case, an important reason for the
> non-reversibility is that they're many-to-one.


Which is true for only the set of inputs, not arbitrary subsets of inputs.

> The word "hash" is used in a number of different contexts in computer
> science, you have to be careful not to confuse them.

Nonsense, it's always the same: A hash is a function A^* -> B^m for fixed
alphabets A and B and a fixed integer m.

Posted by Barry Margolin on December 27, 2007, 5:04 pm
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> Barry Margolin wrote:
>
> > roberson@hushmail.com (Walter Roberson) wrote:
> >
> >>>> Barry Margolin wrote:
> >>>>> How could the hash possibly be guaranteed to be unique?
> >>>> For a limited set of inputs, this is very easy.
> >>> Yes. then it is not a hash. It may be an encryption, or a translation.
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_hash_function
> >>
> >> http://burtleburtle.net/bob/hash/perfect.html
> >> "Minimal perfect hashing"
> >>
> >>
> >> I've never seen Perfect Hashing referred to as an encryption or
> >> translation, only ever as a "hash function".
> >
> > These are not the kind of hashing that the OP is talking about. He's
> > asking about cryptographic hashes, which are claimed to be
> > non-reversible.
>
>
> The OP asked about non-reversible hashes, which are not just the
> cryptographic hashes.
>
> > In this case, an important reason for the
> > non-reversibility is that they're many-to-one.
>
>
> Which is true for only the set of inputs, not arbitrary subsets of inputs.
>
> > The word "hash" is used in a number of different contexts in computer
> > science, you have to be careful not to confuse them.
>
> Nonsense, it's always the same: A hash is a function A^* -> B^m for fixed
> alphabets A and B and a fixed integer m.

But the types of hashes and their properties are very dependent on WHY
you're hashing. The algorithms you use to implement a symbol table
(which is where perfect hashing becomes useful) are completely different
from those used for cryptography (where it's important that it be
difficult to generate the same hash) or password encryption (where
irreversibility is critical).

--
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
*** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***


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