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Posted by Crash Gordon on May 22, 2007, 12:20 am
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That bidder made a big mistake providing engineering drawings along with the
bid, so the bidder gets ripped off for his time and expertise.
|> You seem to be focusing on the end result...
|
| With good reason. If it works, it works, no?
|
| > I am starting at the very beginning of the
| > process. Step one: In our area you must
| > submit a set of plans (including cut sheets
| > and battery calcs) that are stamped with
| > either a fire planner stamp or licensed
| > engineer stamp...
|
| It was similar in CT where I ran an alarm
| company for 24 years. The only difference
| was they did not require an engineer's stamp.
| If the job was done by a professional alarm
| company the person filling out the permit
| application had to show his license. If it's
| being done by a building owner the license
| isn't required. If it's being installed by an
| in-house electrician they ask for his license.
| That is pretty much the way things work all
| over the country. With few exceptions (one
| being St. Louis County), the license is
| waived if it's being done by the building owner
| or his employees.
|
| > Typically these are CAD drawings on D
| > size...
|
| We were never required to include CAD
| drawings. They wanted engineering cut
| sheets for all the products, a battery calc
| and, occasionally, a block diagram of the
| plan of protection. A few of my customers
| have been asked for drawings. Most of those
| have been in larger premises with addressable
| fire alarms. Typically, they have the software
| and skills within their own engineering staff.
|
| One guy really cracked me up. He got
| estimates from the majors and one or two
| local alarm companies. Interested in learning
| more about the systems they were offering,
| he surfed for information online. He found our
| www.BassBurglarAlarms.com website and
| was surprised at the difference in material
| cost. He called, asked me about the various
| systems (I carry most of the same ones the
| professional alarm companies offer) and
| decided to buy the hardware from us. One
| of the bidders had prepared drawings as
| part of his bid. The customer used them to
| create his own, altering a few products to
| fit what he selected.
|
| > Not having an in house CAD person would
| > be the first road block...
|
| Large companies often do.
|
| > In most cases there is a backlog of several
| > weeks, sometimes even months in getting a
| > permit just to start to be able to pull wire...
|
| Wow! Your local building inspector has a
| racket going. Everywhere I've worked it took
| from one to ten days to get a permit. Many
| inspectors would take the application, tell us
| they'd mail the permit to us and then say,
| "Go ahead and get started."
|
| > forget about the C of O, that is still miles
| > away from this first step...
|
| The Certificate of Occupancy is always the
| last step, regardless who puts the system in.
| It makes no difference who did the job as long
| as the permit was issued and the work was
| done to code.
|
| > A fee can be paid to the AHJ for after hours
| > expediting of the process...
|
| Where I worked that would be illegal.
|
| > I sincerely don't know how the AHJ would
| > react to someone in a DIY mode going down
| > there to get this whole process started...
|
| I do know because I've dealt with the situation
| countless times. The vast majority simply want
| the proper forms filled out and the permit fee
| paid. They're not particularly awed by licensed
| electricians, engineers, alarm installers or
| DIYers. To them everyone's the same -- another
| job to inspect. Every once in a while we run
| across an inspector with a bur under his saddle
| but it only takes a few minutes to make a copy
| of the appropriate state law and email or fax it to
| them. Like the ghuy in Florida, they cave in as
| soon as they realize you know what you're talking
| about.
|
| > I think he or she would be told to get lost for
| > no other reason that everyone is far to busy
| > to try and walk a DIY through the process
| > when he or she is not following the normal
| > procedure...
|
| It isn't their job to walk anyone through anything.
| That includes alarm installers as well as DIYers.
|
| > I doubt that anyone there would know what procedure to tell a DIY to
follow...
|
| The "procedure" is to follow the instructions (if
| any) on the permit form. Most are pretty
| straight-forward. Sometimes customers ask me
| for guidance but most of the time they just do it
| themselves.
|
| > Additionally there is a "reputation" certain guys
| > that have a stamp get with the AHJ...
|
| That means nothing. Anyone with a license can
| pull a permit even if he's never worked in that town
| before. The same is true of DIYers. The FM in
| West Hartford, CT, was a personal friend of mine.
| We had dinner together from time to time and we
| often shared a laugh at the local Sonitrash dealer's
| shenanigans. But when I pulled a permit I paid
| the same fee and went through the same inspection
| as anyone else in the trade. I didn't expect "special
| treatment" and I'd have thought less of my friend if
| he'd done so.
|
| Along with my own installations, I sold lots of systems
| to DIYers over the years. None of them was ever
| refused a permit or a CO because they did their own
| installation.
|
| > Sometimes that rep helps to get things done more
| > quickly (because of years of trust and respect)...
|
| If that means "looking the other way" the local AHJ
| is doing the people of his community a disservice.
| He is paid to inspect every system, regardless how
| well he knows the technician. Even a talented,
| knowledgeable installer occasionally makes a mistake
| and it is the purpose of the onspection process to
| reveal that and help get it resolved.
|
| > Others have a rep that causes the opposite
| > reaction...
|
| Mm-hmm. Did I mention Sonitrash lately? :^)
|
| > A DIY would probably get the fine tooth comb
| > inspection if it ever got that far...
|
| I would hope so. The ionspection isn't done to keep
| DIYers from doing the job. It's not there to protect
| industry margins. Its purpose is to protect the public.
|
| > In our state the AHJ can add whatever he or
| > she wishes to the code...
|
| Within limits that is true everywhere. However,
| if he isn't even handed all it takes is a letter to the
| state fire marshal to help him back on the right path.
|
| > I think banning DIY jobs would become a de facto
| > if not an actual code practice...
|
| You may like to think so but you're wrong.
|
| > The notion that training is not required for proper
| > programming the likes of a (Radionics) Bosch 8024
| > or 10024 (both now discontinued), or any Hochiki analog addressable
panel is simply not being
| > realistic...
|
| I don't sell those and I've never worked with them.
| I'll just take your word for it. I do sell several
| addressable systems though and they're not hard to
| configure. Firelite's MS-9050 and related versions
| is easy enough. Here's a URL:
|
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com/ms9050ud_fire_alarm_control_panel_87945_prd1.htm
| I also sell a fair number of the Silent Knight systems:
|
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com/silent_knight_addressable_fire_alarm_381_ctg.htm
| Most clients have no trouble at all getting the
| systems up and running. We actually field more
| tech support calls from people installing our
| whole-house entertainment systems (Russound,
| Xantech, etc.) than commercial fire alarms.
|
| > There is almost always an item that comes up
| > that you need tech support to help you through. If you have not had
training the factory won't
| > talk to you in most cases...
|
| When my clients need help they speak to me. If
| I don't know the answer I call tech support.
|
| > Going after it with only the manual in hand is
| > really putting yourself out on a limb unnecessarily.
| > It might be penny wise but pound foolish to
| > attempt a DIY job beyond a certain size or in
| > certain jurisdictions...
|
| That all depends on the scope of the job and the
| jurisdiction in question. Most of our DIY clients
| are doing systems with less than 150 points. A
| few exceed that but they generally have a tech
| on hand.
|
| > What you save in one hand you'll spend in the
| > other...
|
| That sounds good but when the savings are in
| the thousands of dollars -- sometimes tens of
| thousands -- it's well worth spending the time to
| DIY. It isn't for everybody, mind you, but most
| people with a modicum of tool skills and a bit of
| patience can get it right.
|
| > The annual inspection process that must be
| > followed after the installation and the monitoring
| > etc, etc. would just add more layers of potential
| > hassles...
|
| Not at all. Where it is required the company can
| either hire a local alarm company or pay an in-
| house electrician to do the inspections. Local
| alarm companies are usually delighted to get the
| added revenue without having to honor a warranty.
|
| > Eventually even the most dedicated DIY would
| > throw in the towel once a system of a certain
| > size is reached.
|
| If the system is too big to handle, agreed. Most
| are not though.
|
| --
|
| Regards,
| Robert L Bass
|
| =============================>
| Bass Home Electronics
| 941-925-8650
| 4883 Fallcrest Circle
| Sarasota · Florida · 34233
| http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
| =============================>
|
|
|
|
Posted by Doug on May 22, 2007, 12:59 am
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In all likelihood its BS, its just RLB doing whatever he can to get a
reaction..
Doug
--
> That bidder made a big mistake providing engineering drawings along with
> the
> bid, so the bidder gets ripped off for his time and expertise.
>
>
|
|
Posted by Carl Carlson on May 22, 2007, 11:33 am
If you were Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
> In all likelihood its BS, its just RLB doing whatever he can to get a
> reaction..
>
> Doug
Ya think?
js
|
|
Posted by Doug on May 22, 2007, 11:36 am
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Doug
--
> Doug wrote:
>> In all likelihood its BS, its just RLB doing whatever he can to get a
>> reaction..
>>
>> Doug
>
> Ya think?
> js
>
|
|
Posted by Robert L Bass on May 22, 2007, 2:58 am
If you were Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options > That bidder made a big mistake providing
> engineering drawings along with the bid,
> so the bidder gets ripped off for his time
> and expertise...
Not really. He used the drawings as a sales
tool. In this case he lost the sale. No one
wins every time -- not even me. :^)
Once the sale is lost his drawings are of
no use to him. Akso, the customer never
asked him to include drawings. That was
part of his sales approach and it's probably
a useful tool. Otherwise he wouldn't do it
unless he was Bush. :^)
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
|
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