Just 12 minutes

Just 12 minutes

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Subject Author Date
Just 12 minutes Daave 02-03-2008
| |--> Re: Just 12 minutes Lord Turkey Cou...02-05-2008
| |--> Re: Just 12 minutes Lord Turkey Cou...02-07-2008
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| |--> Re: Just 12 minutes Lord Turkey Cou...02-05-2008
| | ---> Re: Just 12 minutes Lord Turkey Cou...02-05-2008
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| |       ---> Re: Just 12 minutes David W. Hodgin...02-05-2008
| |         ---> Re: Just 12 minutes Lord Turkey Cou...02-06-2008
| |--> Re: Just 12 minutes David W. Hodgin...02-05-2008
| ---> Re: Just 12 minutes Lord Turkey Cou...02-05-2008
| | |--> Re: Just 12 minutes David W. Hodgin...02-05-2008
| ---> Re: Just 12 minutes Lord Turkey Cou...02-06-2008
|     `--> Re: Just 12 minutes Lord Turkey Cou...02-06-2008
Posted by Daave on February 3, 2008, 4:53 pm
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I'm sure many here are very familiar with the notion that there is "a
50% chance of being infected by an internet worm in just 12 minutes of
being online using an unprotected, unpatched Windows PC." As many of you
know, this is a direct quote from a Sophos press release from July 1,
2005:

http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/news/articles/2005/07/pr_uk_midyearroundup2005.html

Sophos got a lot of mileage from this press release. An interesting side
effect I've seen is newsgroup posts warning users of the dangers of
going online to patch an older, pre-SP2 version of Windows XP because it
will take more than 12 minutes, leaving many vulnerable to malware
infestation. Obviously, there are ways around this: download the entire
service pack (using another PC) and burning a disk so that SP2 may be
applied while the PC is offline and safe. Or users may get the
equivalent disk from Microsoft for a nominal fee.

But this begs the question: For the majority of people who choose to
obtain SP2 through automatic updates, *how* vulnerable are they exactly?
Of course, for those running SP1 or Gold, Messenger Service (which is on
by default) can be manually turned off. But again, for the majority of
people who have performed a clean installation without knowing to turn
off specific services, how vulnerable are their PCs?

I'm sure the study referenced in the press release talks about averages
and includes people who don't patch their systems and don't practice
other modes of safe hex. Messenger spam arriving informing a gullible
person that they have spyware or registry problems has happened many,
many times. People clicking on links in e-mails when they shouldn't be
doing so... well, you get the picture.

But what about a PC on the Internet that is not doing anything but
sitting there? Without the benefit of a firewall, hackers/bots can
attempt to do damage, for sure. But without any user input, is this
12-minute figure reasonable? Or is it more a case of marketing hype?
Specifically, what specifically can happen to an unpatched system,
assuming there is no user input (clicking on links, OK buttons in pop-up
windows, etc.)? Are there worms that can do damage this way, and if so,
what are they and what is the mechanism by which they infect a PC? How
common is real-time hacking in this sort of situation?



Posted by David H. Lipman on February 3, 2008, 5:15 pm
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| I'm sure many here are very familiar with the notion that there is "a
| 50% chance of being infected by an internet worm in just 12 minutes of
| being online using an unprotected, unpatched Windows PC." As many of you
| know, this is a direct quote from a Sophos press release from July 1,
| 2005:
|
|
http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/news/articles/2005/07/pr_uk_midyearroundup2005.html
|
| Sophos got a lot of mileage from this press release. An interesting side
| effect I've seen is newsgroup posts warning users of the dangers of
| going online to patch an older, pre-SP2 version of Windows XP because it
| will take more than 12 minutes, leaving many vulnerable to malware
| infestation. Obviously, there are ways around this: download the entire
| service pack (using another PC) and burning a disk so that SP2 may be
| applied while the PC is offline and safe. Or users may get the
| equivalent disk from Microsoft for a nominal fee.
|
| But this begs the question: For the majority of people who choose to
| obtain SP2 through automatic updates, *how* vulnerable are they exactly?
| Of course, for those running SP1 or Gold, Messenger Service (which is on
| by default) can be manually turned off. But again, for the majority of
| people who have performed a clean installation without knowing to turn
| off specific services, how vulnerable are their PCs?
|
| I'm sure the study referenced in the press release talks about averages
| and includes people who don't patch their systems and don't practice
| other modes of safe hex. Messenger spam arriving informing a gullible
| person that they have spyware or registry problems has happened many,
| many times. People clicking on links in e-mails when they shouldn't be
| doing so... well, you get the picture.
|
| But what about a PC on the Internet that is not doing anything but
| sitting there? Without the benefit of a firewall, hackers/bots can
| attempt to do damage, for sure. But without any user input, is this
| 12-minute figure reasonable? Or is it more a case of marketing hype?
| Specifically, what specifically can happen to an unpatched system,
| assuming there is no user input (clicking on links, OK buttons in pop-up
| windows, etc.)? Are there worms that can do damage this way, and if so,
| what are they and what is the mechanism by which they infect a PC? How
| common is real-time hacking in this sort of situation?
|

Using a NAT Router will mitigate the BOT/Worm threat as well as hacking attempts.

--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp



Posted by Daave on February 3, 2008, 5:42 pm
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David H. Lipman wrote:
>
>> I'm sure many here are very familiar with the notion that there is "a
>> 50% chance of being infected by an internet worm in just 12 minutes
>> of
>> being online using an unprotected, unpatched Windows PC." As many of
>> you
>> know, this is a direct quote from a Sophos press release from July 1,
>> 2005:
>>
>>
http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/news/articles/2005/07/pr_uk_midyearroundup2005.html
>>
>> Sophos got a lot of mileage from this press release. An interesting
>> side
>> effect I've seen is newsgroup posts warning users of the dangers of
>> going online to patch an older, pre-SP2 version of Windows XP
>> because it
>> will take more than 12 minutes, leaving many vulnerable to malware
>> infestation. Obviously, there are ways around this: download the
>> entire
>> service pack (using another PC) and burning a disk so that SP2 may be
>> applied while the PC is offline and safe. Or users may get the
>> equivalent disk from Microsoft for a nominal fee.
>>
>> But this begs the question: For the majority of people who choose to
>> obtain SP2 through automatic updates, *how* vulnerable are they
>> exactly?
>> Of course, for those running SP1 or Gold, Messenger Service (which
>> is on
>> by default) can be manually turned off. But again, for the majority
>> of
>> people who have performed a clean installation without knowing to
>> turn
>> off specific services, how vulnerable are their PCs?
>>
>> I'm sure the study referenced in the press release talks about
>> averages
>> and includes people who don't patch their systems and don't practice
>> other modes of safe hex. Messenger spam arriving informing a gullible
>> person that they have spyware or registry problems has happened many,
>> many times. People clicking on links in e-mails when they shouldn't
>> be
>> doing so... well, you get the picture.
>>
>> But what about a PC on the Internet that is not doing anything but
>> sitting there? Without the benefit of a firewall, hackers/bots can
>> attempt to do damage, for sure. But without any user input, is this
>> 12-minute figure reasonable? Or is it more a case of marketing hype?
>> Specifically, what specifically can happen to an unpatched system,
>> assuming there is no user input (clicking on links, OK buttons in
>> pop-up
>> windows, etc.)? Are there worms that can do damage this way, and if
>> so,
>> what are they and what is the mechanism by which they infect a PC?
>> How
>> common is real-time hacking in this sort of situation?
>>
>
> Using a NAT Router will mitigate the BOT/Worm threat as well as
> hacking attempts.

This is certainly true.

Not that I'm advocating that computer users not take proper precautions,
but I'm just curious if someone who has an ordinary modem and is not
running a software firewall, etc. will be in danger of being infected
within 12 minutes as is commonly believed, and if so, what is the
mechanism by which this can happen? In my scenario, the PC is just
sitting idle. Or sitting at Windows Update. :-)



Posted by David H. Lipman on February 3, 2008, 6:00 pm
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|
| This is certainly true.
|
| Not that I'm advocating that computer users not take proper precautions,
| but I'm just curious if someone who has an ordinary modem and is not
| running a software firewall, etc. will be in danger of being infected
| within 12 minutes as is commonly believed, and if so, what is the
| mechanism by which this can happen? In my scenario, the PC is just
| sitting idle. Or sitting at Windows Update. :-)
|

Unfortunately -- yes.

There are various mechanisms.

When a Win32 PC is connected to the Internet TCP ports are open for various
communication
reasons such as RPC, DCOM, NetBIOS over IP, etc.

When there is an unpatched vulnerability a worm infected PC on the Internet may
"test" the
ports for vulnerbilities and then exploit them and thus "worm" their way into
the computer.
Such bots as; RBot, SDBot, GAObot use mult-facted infection vectors. That is
they won't
try to test one port and one vulnerability but will test a myriad of ports and
vulnerabilities.

Then there is the case of software that was installed on said computer and is
loaded
automatically or by a service and the BOTs/worms may test for vulnerabilities in
them as
well.

So, an unpatched PC just sitting idle and connected to the Internet will
increase the
probability of an infection. Then there is the case of a patched PC that still
has
vulnerabilities but a patch has not been release yet.


--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp



Posted by Daave on February 3, 2008, 11:19 pm
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David H. Lipman wrote:
>
>
>>
>> This is certainly true.
>>
>> Not that I'm advocating that computer users not take proper
>> precautions,
>> but I'm just curious if someone who has an ordinary modem and is not
>> running a software firewall, etc. will be in danger of being infected
>> within 12 minutes as is commonly believed, and if so, what is the
>> mechanism by which this can happen? In my scenario, the PC is just
>> sitting idle. Or sitting at Windows Update. :-)
>>
>
> Unfortunately -- yes.
>
> There are various mechanisms.
>
> When a Win32 PC is connected to the Internet TCP ports are open for
> various communication reasons such as RPC, DCOM, NetBIOS over IP, etc.
>
> When there is an unpatched vulnerability a worm infected PC on the
> Internet may "test" the ports for vulnerbilities and then exploit
> them and thus "worm" their way into the computer. Such bots as;
> RBot, SDBot, GAObot use mult-facted infection vectors. That is they
> won't try to test one port and one vulnerability but will test a
> myriad of ports and vulnerabilities.
>
> Then there is the case of software that was installed on said
> computer and is loaded automatically or by a service and the
> BOTs/worms may test for vulnerabilities in them as well.
>
> So, an unpatched PC just sitting idle and connected to the Internet
> will increase the probability of an infection. Then there is the
> case of a patched PC that still has vulnerabilities but a patch has
> not been release yet.

Thanks for the explanation.

Is a PC running with a limited user account just as vulnerable?



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